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 1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it.

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phade

phade


Posts : 475
Join date : 2011-08-19
Location : Kent / South East London

1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 Empty
PostSubject: Re: 1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it.   1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 EmptyTue Oct 30, 2012 6:26 pm

Post by billk on 27th June 2012

phade wrote:

Hi everyone,

I am getting really sick and tired of these faults to be honest, so if anyone could have a look at it for me, I would really appreciate it. I don't want to have to sell it, but if it keeps doing that, I may have no choice as it's not paying it's way !

As someone else said above, we all feel that way about our Reliants sometimes, i hope your 2nd go works well and gets everything sorted. If there is a secondary problem (eg wheaters comment) then you may have answered your own question - you have an excellent yellow top in your SE and the highratio axle in B-lap. Swap the engines over, enjoy B-lap as your daily drive, and work on the other one in the comfort of your garage instead of in the knuckle-scraping hole where reliant put it. Sometimes these problems (I had similar issues on a OHV Escort 20 years ago) are due to very tiny failures in the casting which are barely visible in the engine bay, with the engine out it is much easier to inspect from every angle, I removed Robby's head with the engine on the ground in about 20 minutes, I hate to think how difficult that would have been in situ.

Good luck with it, but I think the others are probably on the right track that you need to give your work chance to prove itself, the gasket may well settle down nicely after a few miles and a retorque.
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phade

phade


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1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 Empty
PostSubject: Re: 1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it.   1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 EmptyTue Oct 30, 2012 6:28 pm

Post by AzzY on 29th June 2012

Forgot I had these pictures.. Actually in my rebuild thread.
One of the many heads I've refaced, by hand.

1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 Image023


I found this one aswell, here you can see the deliberate chamber ring shapes, possibly one of the thinnest gaskets you will find .

1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 Image024-1
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phade

phade


Posts : 475
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PostSubject: Re: 1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it.   1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 EmptyTue Oct 30, 2012 6:32 pm

15th July 2012

An engine update on my Rialto 2:-

After trying to get my Rialto 2's engine to work properly, I decided that there must be something wrong with it's yellow top head as the engine had turned fresh oil into milk in less than 5 minutes

1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 IMG_0032-2


I have found out last Saturday (after Simon - Madblokey and I had a look at it) that my Rialto 2's yellow top head isn't flat after all. We found an approx 8 thou dip starting from 1/2 way along cylinder 2 and ending at 1/2 way along cylinder 3. Sadly, it also looks like that it cannot be skimmed again either.

I then decided to look for another cylinder head and ended up getting a decent red top head from Dan.

The red top head after I had cleaned it up and removed lots of traces of wire wool that was inside practically every hole within the cylinder head and removed the rust from the cylinder head's steel water inlet and outlet pipes:-

1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 IMG_0070

1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 IMG_0071-1

1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 IMG_0072-1

1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 IMG_0075-2


The cylinder head its self is also perfectly flat (I could not even get a 3 thou feeler gauge underneath a steel rule when I checked the cylinder head). It also appears that it has never been skimmed either. I could still see (what I think) is the original writing on the cylinder head's surface:-

1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 IMG_0073-1

1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 IMG_0074-1
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phade

phade


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1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 Empty
PostSubject: Re: 1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it.   1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 EmptyTue Oct 30, 2012 6:34 pm

15th July 2012

Cylinder head holes comparison:-

Both Birmal cylinder heads appear to be very closely matched.

My Rialto 2's old yellow top head:-

1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 IMG_0077-1


Red top head:-

1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 IMG_0076-1
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phade

phade


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15th July 2012

I then decided to remove all eight of the red top cylinder head's valves as I plan to renew all eight of it's valves and valve stem seals.

Cylinder head after it's valves have been removed (after a slight struggle):-


1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 IMG_0078-2

1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 IMG_0083-2


Valves 1 and 2:-

1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 IMG_0079-2

1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 IMG_0084-2


Valves 3 and 4:

1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 IMG_0080-2

1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 IMG_0085-2


Valves 5 and 6:-

1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 IMG_0081-2

1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 IMG_0086-2


Valves 7 and 8:-

1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 IMG_0082-2

1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 IMG_0087-2
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phade

phade


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1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 Empty
PostSubject: Re: 1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it.   1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 EmptyWed Oct 31, 2012 6:15 pm

15th July 2012

Cylinder head after I had cleaned up the valve spring and valve recesses:-

1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 IMG_0089-3

1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 IMG_0090-3


All eight valves and valve springs after removal. It looks like that I will either be swapping the valve springs over with my Rialto 2's old yellow top cylinder head's valve springs as the red top cylinder head's valve springs appear to be of different lengths. I will be measuring them later on to see what lengths they are.

1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 IMG_0088-2
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phade

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Post by Daniel Rodd 15th July 2012

glad the head arrived safely and that it was as good as i thought and hoped it would be.as to spring lengths,fit the longest ones! as i guess the shorter ones will just be those that have compressed more
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phade

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15th July 2012

I have had a look at the valves form the red top cylinder head and have a quick question. Do those valves need to be replaced and lapped in (I have already bought new valves from Gaskets for Classics just in case) ?

From left to right: red top valve 1, one of my Rialto SE's old yellow top cylinder head's exhaust valves, Gaskets for Classics exhaust valve - red top valve 2, one of my Rialto SE's old yellow top cylinder head's inlet valves, Gaskets for Classics inlet valve:-

1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 IMG_0091-3

1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 IMG_0092-3


Red top valve 1 - notice the step in that valve (all of the red top's exhaust valves are similar to that valve):-

1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 IMG_0094-3


Red top valve 2 - same as above:-

1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 IMG_0095-3
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phade

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Post by jessejazza on 16th July 2012

phade wrote:

I have had a look at the valves form the red top cylinder head and have a quick question. Do those valves need to be replaced and lapped in (I have already bought new valves from Gaskets for Classics just in case) ?
Valves always need to be lapped to make a good seal. In your case, if you're not replacing the valve seats - essential as the seats will be slightly worn to the old valve. Pain to get out the grinding paste and stick but it's an evenings work and job done.

I've just done the head on my car after an engine reconditioner clearly didn't make a good job - only one cylinder but worth doing.
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phade

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16th July 2012

In other words, the valves should be replaced with the new ones anyway ? I did buy new Gaskets for Classics valves just incase I needed to use them.
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phade

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16th July 2012

Hi everyone, I have quickly measured the valve spring lengths and they are as follows:-


Reliant valve spring length specs:-

Free length: 39.62 mm (1.56 ") - is this specification with or without the retaining cap fitted ?
Fitted length with load - 17.01 kg (37.5 lb): 34.11 mm (1.343 ")
Valve open - 39.60 kg (87.13 lb): 28.6 mm (1.125 ")


Valve spring lengths from red top head:-

Valve 1: 37.74 mm without cap, 41.2 mm with cap

Valve 2: 40.04 mm without cap, 42.35 mm with cap

Valve 3: 38.2 mm without cap, 41.72 mm with cap

Valve 4: 38.81 mm without cap, 41.73 mm with cap

Valve 5: 39.01 mm without cap, 41.66 m with cap

Valve 6: 39.52 mm without cap, 42.34 mm with cap

Valve 7: 38.92 mm without cap, 41.76 mm with cap

Valve 8: 38.85 mm without cap, 41.64 mm with cap
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phade

phade


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Posts by others 16th July 2012

str8lolly

phade wrote:

In other words, the valves should be replaced with the new ones anyway ? I did buy new Gaskets for Classics valves just incase I needed to use them.

Not really, both old and new still need the grinding paste out.

BIGDADDY

as a rule with me always with valves if you take em out grind em back in


AMAM

BIGDADDY wrote:

as a rule with me always with valves if you take em out grind em back in

its an always to grind valves back it, if they are new or old, no point putting head back on and having to take it out again because of a crack in valve ect
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phade

phade


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21st July 2012

Some more work I did on my Rialto 2:-

Valve springs:-

I measured up the new valve springs a couple of days ago and found that the old ones were tired. The new valve springs lengths (without the cap) varied from 40.27mm to 40.67mm. I'll be installing the new valves, stem seals and valve springs later today.


Head gasket modifications:-

I also had to modify the genuine Reliant head gasket as a couple of water ways were misalinged (I also modified the old Gaskets for Classics head gasket to practice on in case my method did not work). I used a miniature half flat and round file to file out the holes.


Old Gaskets for Classics head gasket:-

1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 IMG_0096-3


Genuine Reliant thick head gasket:-

1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 IMG_0097-3
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phade

phade


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21st July 2012

Valve seats after I had lapped in the new Gaskets for Classic Valves and cleaned out the valve seats and valves with degreaser to ensure that no grinding paste remains:-

1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 IMG_0098-3


Valves seats 1 and 2:-

1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 IMG_0099-3


Valves seats 3 and 4:-

1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 IMG_0100-1


Valves seats 5 and 6:-

1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 IMG_0101-3


Valves seats 7 and 8:-

1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 IMG_0102-3


Gaskets for Classics valves after lapping them into the valve seats (indicating the amount of lapping that was required):-

Valves 1 and 2:-

1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 IMG_0103-3


Valves 3 and 4:-

1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 IMG_0104-3


Valves 5 and 6:-

1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 IMG_0105-2


Valves 7 and 8:-

1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 IMG_0106-2


More progress pics to come later....
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phade

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21st July 2012

More progress...

New valve springs, valves and stem seals fitted (double coiled ends on the cylinder head its self):-

1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 IMG_0107-3

1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 IMG_0108-3


Rocker shaft and rocker cover studs (from the yellow top head) installed:-

1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 IMG_0109-2


Inlet and exhaust manifolds refitted (nuts tightened to 15 lbft):-

1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 IMG_0110-3
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phade

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21st July 2012

Red top cylinder head to yellow top block alignment (metal to metal contact) check:-

I think the cylinder head appears to line up with the cylinder block (the gaps appeared to be the same and the red top cylinder head its self is also flat). Having said that, any comments are welcome.

1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 IMG_0111-3

1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 IMG_0112-3

1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 IMG_0113-3

1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 IMG_0114-3

1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 IMG_0115-3

1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 IMG_0116-3

1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 IMG_0117-2

1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 IMG_0118-3
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phade

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Post by AzzY on 21st July 2012

Reface the surface of the head, exhaust valve seats could so with more work.
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21st July 2012

AzzY wrote:

Reface the surface of the head, exhaust valve seats could so with more work.
As in get rid of the pitting on the exhaust valves completely ? I did lap them in until they became silent when I spun the exhaust valves within the valve seats, but I'm guessing that it may help to seal them completely.

I did measure the red top head with a 3 thou feeler gauge and a steel rule (edge on the cylinder head its self) and I could not get the 3 thou gauge underneath it. I also plan to use Reliant's thick head gasket to ensure that both halves will not mix fluids,
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Posts by others on 21st July 2012

jessejazza

[quote="phade"]As in get rid of the pitting on the exhaust valves completely ?/[QUOTE]

Yes, i'd agree with Azzy - the pitting needs to go BUT it's on the inlet ones (1, 4, 5, Cool... well if it was mine i'd get rid of it. Compare the matt band depth between the exhaust and inlet valves they should be about the same. The exhausts could do with a little bit more i'd say.

On my motor i reckoned just cyl #1 needed a little attention and now when running it's amazing the difference. It's a pain but do a job once and do it well.


AzzY

jessejazza wrote:

Yes, i'd agree with Azzy - the pitting needs to go BUT it's on the inlet ones (1, 4, 5, Cool... well if it was mine i'd get rid of it. Compare the matt band depth between the exhaust and inlet valves they should be about the same. The exhausts could do with a little bit more i'd say.

On my motor i reckoned just cyl #1 needed a little attention and now when running it's amazing the difference. It's a pain but do a job once and do it well.

Strange engine for carb to be fitted to the (smaller valves) exhaust ports
Its common on Reliant engines that the exhaust valve seats pit more than the inlet ones and usually need more work.
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phade

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21st July 2012

AzzY wrote:

Strange engine for carb to be fitted to the (smaller valves) exhaust ports
Its common on Reliant engines that the exhaust valve seats pit more than the inlet ones and usually need more work.

You're right about the exhaust valve seats. I have just lapped in the #1 exhaust valve and I think I have practically got rid of all of the pits within it's valve seat. I'm going to post a pic of it in a few minutes.
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phade

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21st July 2012

Second attempt in lapping in #1 exhaust valve into it's valve seat. Hopefully, that has got rid of the pits from the valve seat:-

1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 IMG_0119-3
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phade

phade


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1985 Lap Rialto 2 (hopefully a more concise version of it) - this may take me time to update it. - Page 9 Empty
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Posts by others on 21st July 2012

str8lolly

Thats much better


jessejazza

AzzY wrote:

Its common on Reliant engines that the exhaust valve seats pit more than the inlet ones and usually need more work.

i think that's on all engines. I remember the first engine i ever worked on a Ford Escort 2 1298 and the manual said don't grind inlet seats as they are hardened. I read this after doing so of course! - she was good for 150k miles so.... i reckon always grind inlet valves then one can be sure they seat well.


jessejazza

phade wrote:

You're right about the exhaust valve seats. I have just lapped in the #1 exhaust valve and I think I have practically got rid of all of the pits within it's valve seat. I'm going to post a pic of it in a few minutes.

Looking at the pic i wonder if you've used enough Fine paste. Both seat and valve should have a nice dull ring on them.


BIGDADDY

are you sure that core plug is ok phil
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phade

phade


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21st July 2012

That will be changed as soon as the cylinder head is fitted to the block.

I thought it looked suspect as well, especially after I found the bits of Araldite type stuff near it. Thankfully, I have still got a new spare core plug.
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phade

phade


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Post by bilk on 22nd July 2012

Would be good while you have it apart to ensure the manifold ports, gasket holes and head ports are all properly matched, especially as you are mixing manifolds from another head made several years earlier. There can be quite a step to hinder gas flow and therefore economy/performance. I suggest matching the gasket to the larger ports, laying it over the smaller ports and marking the metal to be removed with a touchup paint.
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phade

phade


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22nd July 2012

The head its self (I think) is a 1983/1984 red top Birmal cylinder head and the yellow top Birmal cylinder head that came off is a 1985 one.
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